Engine Building

Got something you want to say but don't know where else to say it? This is the spot to post it!
Post Reply
cad600
New Poster
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:35 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Engine Building

Post by cad600 »

So I finally have myself talked into building a track only bike. I would love to use my 750, but I'm keeping it for the street. I'm planning on building a 400 bike with a YZF600 based 660 engine (FZR600 crank into a YZF600 engine = 661.78cc). I have all of the engine parts and the frame is on the way. The engine build is well covered on other sites and I'm not worried about the build itself - I've built 1 engine from split cases already and it still runs. What I'm looking for is some insight into some components for the engine. So I would love to hear what anyone has to say on these items:

1) Conrods - I want to either use new conrods or have my set that is used inspected and then have them shot peened for increased strength. Which way is best as I can pick up a new set for roughly the same cost as having them shot peened so the money is not a matter here. What about cryo treatment on these? I don't have $1k+ to spend on custom Carllio rods or I would just do that.

2) Crank - I want to have the superbike treatment (lighten and balanced) done to the crank. Main reason I can't get the Carllio rods as the crank service will be near $800. Should I look at having any treatments done to the crank such as shot peened, cryo,.....?

3) Tranny - I'm not really going to worry about having the tranny back cut. But is there any treatments that I should consider? My main concern is the lack of replacement parts - 2nd gear is the main issue and parts are no longer available from Yamaha - are there any shops that can make a gear?

My biggest concern is making sure that when I put the 2 halves together that I do not clog any oil routes. Oil failure to the conrods seem to be the biggest cause of engine failure that I have seen. Any other suggestions or things I should watch for?

Big Jon
Help!!! I need a LIFE!!!
Posts: 847
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:09 pm
Location: Edmonton Alberta Canada

Re: Engine Building

Post by Big Jon »

Yzf 600 second gear parts no longer available from yammie? That may not be the case in all markets, as long as you're referring to the thundercat. It was sold in the US until 2007. That's all I can offer on this subject.

sickle44
Help!!! I need a LIFE!!!
Posts: 3519
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:35 pm
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

Re: Engine Building

Post by sickle44 »

I'd seriously consider which treatment from Falicon, if it is Falicon you're using. If the superbike treatment is the most invasive treatment that Falicon (for example) does and this is your first race bike, I'd suggest just scaling the service down to their first level of tune. The full flat out superbike treatment won't allow the engine to idle below 3000rpm. My crank job cost me something around 5 bones I think and it's beautiful, with a used set of rods for 'round 300, there's the 800 you were thinking of spending anyways, at least that's the way I would go were I you, and did go myself as well.

As for as what you need to do the crank before hand, just make sure it's packed very well, they will magnuflux it and all the rest for you anywho, all part of the treatment at Falicon. So on the site, http://faliconcranks.com/crank_svc.html supercrank service is what I paid for & the Ultralight service is the one I'd recommend staying far away from unless you're a very experienced racer and want the engine's idle to be around 3 - 3500. I also WOULD have the gears back cut and send them to a specialist as they be able to do a little strengthing as well, doing away with your second gear worries. Also if you do manage to get a set of rods, send them down with your crank and have them weight matched as well as the having the crank journals brassed( sorry can't remember the exact procedure at the moment but the rod's journal the mates to the cranks will look like brass. Very pretty. If you end up going wiht Falicon, phone there and ask for Sean, but only Sean, lady on the switch board is all about the cheddar and she's kind of ... well you know, and tell him Michael from the exup Board told you to go there.

Also make sure your clean up your head a bit, most importantly the exhaust ports, should be baby bum smooth. Intake's you can smooth but you shouldn't make them like a polished finish as a rougher port intake surface helps to atomize your air/fuel mix. Myself I think I'd stop with a 320 grit on the intakes, the exhaust, I'd polish them buggers.

Hope that helps a bit.
Michael
Yes Yes I know, I said, I'm building a project YZF1070

Basement is done now, 850 finished and gone...
Gotta get the new siding up on the house.
Fixing the FZ1 up, cleaning up garage and then I might even begin

spook
Dolphin-headed purple plasma TLR thing?
Posts: 3837
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:12 pm
Location: Melbourne. Australia

Re: Engine Building

Post by spook »

Hi Cadd. What are you doing with this engine? Racing for a championship? Track riding? if you are just wanting to build a track bike, I wouldn't bother doing anything to the crank, lightening does not increase power, it will just make it more difficult to live with. Yamaha know how to balance a crank so I wouldn't waste any money on it.

Rods, have the bigends re-sized (it's cheap...$50) and balance them (do it yourself), and shot peen if you want to spend the money (are you increasing red line?)

Best thing you can do for for a trans is factory pro shift kit, as they force you to shift in a positive manner. half hearted missed shifts kill transmission dogs.

The HP comes from the following. Capacity, and you are gaining 60 cc with the crank. Compression raise it to 12.5 - 13:1 (cheap) Carburation properly jetted. Clean up the ports and match manifolds to head-carbs etc.

So there you go... saved yourself 2K. and you end up with a powerful and sweet engine!

make sure all clearances are good (bearings, bore, oil pump... everything).

cad600
New Poster
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:35 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Engine Building

Post by cad600 »

Great info guys. I really appreciate it.

I was mistaken about the parts availability on the tranny. They are still available. Might be worth the money to go ahead and purchase an extra set of 2nd gears to have. I have 2 complete transmissions, but both are from used street bikes. Thought I had a line on a tranny that was already back cut but that didn't pan out.

On the crank, I was thinking of going with the lower version of the superbike crank. It would only lighten it up a little and then rebalance and polish. I had looked at Falicon and APE Racing for this. The deisre to do it is 2 fold. 1) it would help the engine spin up faster which would help out on the track. 2) I would send my conrods (and pistons if I'm able to) to them as well to have it all put togther and balanced as one unit.

The redline of these 660 engine is somewhat in question. Mathmatically I can figure out what it should be, but the FZR redlined @ 11,500rpm I think and the YZF redlines up @ 13,000rpm. I would like to go to at least 13k or amybe a little higher. most people who build the engine keep it around 12k. so using a lighter crank would help here. I also want to do this one time. I don't want to say "I wish I had done this or that". So given that I may go ahead and back cut one of my trannies. I've already got the shift kit and other parts.

This is just a track bike. I don't have time to start club racing. Nor would the engine be legal in any class here.

So if anyone else has some food for thought, please let me know.

Big Jon
Help!!! I need a LIFE!!!
Posts: 847
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:09 pm
Location: Edmonton Alberta Canada

Re: Engine Building

Post by Big Jon »

Not racing? Just a track mule? Find a used older race machine for between $1000 and $2000 and flog the crap outta it.

Otherwise I wouldn't worry about any engine work unless gridding was involved. Save the money and buy a set of Pirelli Red Stripes, and get the suspension set up for you. After a couple years of that, then If and Only If you've caught the racing bug, would I break open an engine. Most street machines will suffer regular track days for years, with no issues, Racing is very different, and even then...

sickle44
Help!!! I need a LIFE!!!
Posts: 3519
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:35 pm
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

Re: Engine Building

Post by sickle44 »

Make sure you're absolutely investing in a EXCELLENT one piece suit, boots and gloves before spending money elsewhere.
Michael
Yes Yes I know, I said, I'm building a project YZF1070

Basement is done now, 850 finished and gone...
Gotta get the new siding up on the house.
Fixing the FZ1 up, cleaning up garage and then I might even begin

Big Jon
Help!!! I need a LIFE!!!
Posts: 847
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:09 pm
Location: Edmonton Alberta Canada

Re: Engine Building

Post by Big Jon »

+1 :thumbup:

Good gear, get the suspension sorted, get decent rubber, and ride.
After you're pestering the guys in the fast groups for a while, maybe look at engine work, or just go race as is and have fun with that. Your budget is your choice. My race budget was around $500 per year not including fuel, and negating the fact that organizers have race fees ($250/weekend) waived. So $500 had to cover gear, goodies, and tires for the season. There are also very effective, inexpensive laptimers available, but I would recommend against them for at least the first couple years. Focus on getting smooth, fast will come.

cad600
New Poster
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:35 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Engine Building

Post by cad600 »

Oh ya. Gear is the most important thing as far as I'm concerned. I've already got a great high quality suite, boots, gloves, and back protector. Did my first track day last October in them and everything felt great.

Suspension is my second area of concern. I had a model correct YZF750 Ohlins shock and a set of FGRT Ohlins forks for a '08 R1 mounted and I tell you that even on my first track day I could tell a difference in cornering. I was constantly catching people on 1K GSXR's and the new BMW RR in the corners. They would rocket away as soon as the track got straight, but I was almost always catching up in the corners. Had one guy I was always about to pass mid corner for 2 laps on a GSXR. He finally let me by on the front straight and I only say him at the end of the straight for turn 1 after that. So Suspension is an item I'm looking for as well.

I know the stories about getting smooth first then worry about the engine later. And I'm a fairly big advocate for that as well. With this though, I've got the engine parts already. All I need to do is build the damn thing and maybe have some minor tweaks done first. I'd rather not have to tare the engine apart to build it up again later. That is the only reason I'm chasing this down. Although, I do have to admit that not being completely hung out to dry by the newer 600's is appealing. And a fast revving 660 would do the trick for that. I know that the newer 1k's will eat me for breakfast on the straights no mater what.

Great info though. I really do appreciate it.

sickle44
Help!!! I need a LIFE!!!
Posts: 3519
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:35 pm
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

Re: Engine Building

Post by sickle44 »

Sounds like you've got it sorted out well Cad600. As for suspenion upgrades, do you really need anymore? HOlY CRAP what you've got already sounds delicsious!!! With that last post and sounding as if you need more power, hence you wanting to do your engine, why not try for even more discplacement, or maybe a 1mm valve increase, I'd suggest that you at least bring your middle intake valve up 1mm. By doing the middle you'll gain something and being only four valves, it won't cost you that much
Michael
Yes Yes I know, I said, I'm building a project YZF1070

Basement is done now, 850 finished and gone...
Gotta get the new siding up on the house.
Fixing the FZ1 up, cleaning up garage and then I might even begin

spook
Dolphin-headed purple plasma TLR thing?
Posts: 3837
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:12 pm
Location: Melbourne. Australia

Re: Engine Building

Post by spook »

sickle44 wrote: I'd suggest that you at least bring your middle intake valve up 1mm. By doing the middle you'll gain something and being only four valves, it won't cost you that much
I'm pretty sure the 600 only has 4 valves per cylinder Michael... :lol:

User avatar
FZRDude
Co-Admin
Posts: 4807
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:20 am
Location: North-Left Coast, USA
Contact:

Re: Engine Building

Post by FZRDude »

spook wrote:
sickle44 wrote: I'd suggest that you at least bring your middle intake valve up 1mm. By doing the middle you'll gain something and being only four valves, it won't cost you that much
I'm pretty sure the 600 only has 4 valves per cylinder Michael... :lol:
T'was thinking the same.
There are some who call me........Tim?
In Memory Of John "Silver" Douglas (Dec. 08, 2008) R.I.P. My Friend.

:wave: :popcorn :cursing :super-mad

Post Reply