R1 speedo sensor

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fj1289
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R1 speedo sensor

Post by fj1289 »

I'm looking for a good explanation of how the R1 speedo works. I know there is a sensor that "reads" the speed of a gear on the output shaft of the tranny. I assume it generates a pulse similar to an ignition pick up. <br><br>If I want to put a set of R1 gauges on an older bike (like my 89 FJ1200 with an R1 front end) - how can I replicate this signal? Can I position a sensor to "read" the teeth on the countershaft sprocket? Can I epoxy small magnets around the brake rotor carrier and use a bicycle style pick up? Other ideas?<br><br>Approximately how many pulses per revolution of the tire does the speedo "see"? How strong does a pulse have to be in order to be read?<br><br>I assume if I get close to the right number of pulses, I can use a yellow box to correct any remaining error. <br><br>Thanks in advance for any technical knowledge, experience, or wild ideas you can pass on. Thanks <p></p><i></i>

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FZRDude
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Re: R1 speedo sensor

Post by FZRDude »

One way to make R1 gauges to work is to install them on a R1. Sorry, I'm just being really silly tonight, and not just here.<br><br>Tim <p>This space left blank</p><i></i>

fj1289
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Re: R1 speedo sensor

Post by fj1289 »

Tim,<br>no worries - we all leave some space blank from time to time!<br><br>Chris <p></p><i></i>

Exupilot
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R1 speedo

Post by Exupilot »

The R1 speedo works simillar to an abs sensor, the sensor 'see's' the gaps in a reluctor ring and counts them. The faster you go the quicker the pulses.<br>I'm guessing that it uses an 'hall effect' type sender, probably a proximity sender and this is attatched or sandwiched on to the final shaft of the box.<br>We use a simillar system on the trucks at work for driving the tachograph (speedo) and this is a very accurate and reliable way of generating speed singnals (although the R1 isn't renowned for it's speedo accuracy!).<br><br>The bad news is unless you have a bike with this type of gearbox arrangement, or a sender unit that can be cable driven and give the same signal, it is highly unlikely that you wil be able to get this working (although there's always someone somewhere proves you wrong...!)<br><br>Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I don't think you stand much chance.<br><br>Rob <p></p><i></i>

flyingcircus68
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Re: R1 speedo

Post by flyingcircus68 »

I would like to point out that reluctance type sensors ( like the crank position sensor) are current generating devices. The sensor is basically a button magnet with two pole pieces attached to it. One pole piece is the button in the center, the other is a metal ring around the periphary. There is a coil of wire in between these two pole pieces. When metal is present near the sensing end of the crank sensor, the magnetic field has an easier time flowing through that metal, and the field grows stronger. When the metal moves away from the sensing end, the magnetic field has a harder time flowing in the air between the poles (increased reluctance) and collapses to a much lower level. This growth and ebb of the magnetic field creates a current in the coil similar to an generator, except that the current flows only in pulses, and not continuously. This pulsing current is sent to a conditioning circuit that converts it into a signal that can be counted by the engine controller.<br><br>The hall effect sensor is something entirely different. It is a silicon based device which is excited into conducting current by the presence of a magnetic field. When the magnetic field ecxeeds the minimum required to cause it to conduct, it stays on regardless of how much more the field grows.<br><br>The easiest way to get this type of speedo to work is to buy a small inductive proximity sensor that runs on 12 volts and mount it to the countershaft cover. This sensor can read the high points of a specially made washer that has castellations milled into it on the O.D. Of course, you could probably have slots ground directly on the face of the sprocket. The number of castellations would depend on the gear ratio and number of castellations on the R1. If you know that and your current gear ratio, you could figure this out. You could look up proximity sensors on the web under Banner, keyence, stedham and quite a few other manufacturers names. <p></p><i></i>

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FZRDude
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Re: R1 speedo

Post by FZRDude »

Very nice technical information. Now my head hurts. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :b --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br>Tim <p><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>I heard somewhere that a Duck's Quack will not echo. The animal not the Bike.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></p><i></i>

fj1289
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Re: R1 speedo - follow up questions

Post by fj1289 »

Thanks for the responses!<br><br>The inductive proximity sensor and a slotted ring on the countershaft appears to be what Suzuki uses. I hoped that was the same type setup Yamaha used too. The only remaining question is - Where does the speedo unit get its signal? Directly from the sensor? Or does the signal go thru the computer?<br><br>If it comes directly from the sensor, then the task gets much easier. Calculate the number of pulses per tire revolution (or pulses per mile). Set up a "trigger" of some type with an appropriate number of "teeth" to get into the ballpark. The use a speedo corrector to fine-tune the setup. A bit of fiddling and craftsmanship, but not exactly rocket surgery ... <br><br>Now, if it goes through the computer, I imagine that gets more complicated for use on an entirely different model motorcycle. Issues such as what minimum inputs do I need to the computer to generate a speedo output signal, etc. would come into play. That is probably a lot closer to brain science... <p></p><i></i>

Exupilot
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speedo

Post by Exupilot »

Your in luck, the speedo does not take a corrected signal from the ecu, it runs off the sender direct, the ecu shares the signal to work out fuel from rpm/speed/throttle pos/gear etc. <br><br>You might be able to rig something up on your front or rear sprocket mounts, long shot I know but worth a go. I would reccomend using the origional sender unit, we find different makes sometimes give us grief on the HGV's so you can bet your arse the same would apply to the bikes, plus the fact, you could be scratching your head wondering why it don't work only to find it's an incompatible sender.<br><br>ps. tha hall effect sender does use rotating magnets but they move a reed switch to give impulses...<br><br>Rob<br> <p></p><i></i>

fj1289
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Re: speedo

Post by fj1289 »

Rob,<br><br>Thanks for the second piece of the puzzle. It definately seems possible - I've got a couple of ideas along the lines you suggested or with the countershaft sprocket. In theory, taking speed from the front wheel is more accurate - especially at higher speeds. (If you wheelie a lot - I guess you could keep the mileage down too!) It's just a matter of sorting the details, plan it out, gather parts, and do it. Thanks for the help and the info.<br><br>Chris <p></p><i></i>

flyingcircus68
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Re: speedo

Post by flyingcircus68 »

I would like to point out that the 'hall effect' and a magnetic reed switch are two distinct concepts. The reed switch activates by a beam being physically bent in the presence of a magnetic field. The 'hall effect' is something entirely different. It has to do with the shifting of an electrical current within a conductor. This can be seen in detail at: <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>

Exupilot
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hall senders

Post by Exupilot »

flyingcircus,<br><br>having not swallowed a physics text book, and only used to working on practical things, if you want to argue the point on this, I suggest you get in touch with Lucas/Mannesman/Kiensel or VDO instruments and tell them they are wrong, beacause thats whats in the training manual and has been for about 15 years to my knowledge. I really don't give a monkeys arse if they are right or wrong to call it this, but thats what the manufacturers training us grease monkeys call it.<br>and if it emmits voltage up to a certain level then stays constant after that, how come they use it to drive a speedo?<br>By the way we have seen inside it and it does have a reed switch and rotating magnets, and gives out 8 pulses per revolution.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

flyingcircus68
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Re: hall senders

Post by flyingcircus68 »

I'm not out to offend you, or anyone else, I'm just trying to share my knowledge in the subject. I don't profess to knowing everything. I know a little bit about some things and nothing about many. Because I do know a little bit about this, I felt compelled to chime in. The three methods discussed are used for the same net result. The choice between the three depends on the particular application. Because they fulfill similar requirements, they are sometimes used interchangeably and this was obviously the case during your training. The key to using one of these sensors and getting an rpm reading is by using an electronic circuit called a 'frequency to voltage converter'. This circuit is basically an Op Amp with a high pass filter. This filter has a slope which is linear. This means that the voltage coming out of the amp will increase at a predictable rate when the pulse frequency increases. All the major chip mfgrs. such as National, Fairchild, etc. sell chips specifically for this type of application and they are fairly simple to construct by anyone who has taken basic electronics. <br><br>Again, I'm only interested in freely discussing ideas and not trying to stir up emotions. If I came across as a pedantic ass, I apologize. <p></p><i></i>

Exupilot
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Moody git...

Post by Exupilot »

No prob's chap, just in a bad mood since I discovered a bent fork leg on the Exup, and yes its an RU model.....<br><br>you could have a point with the sender units as the number of supersessions on the computer at work for the same part is staggering.... guess the swedish gimps couldnt make up thier minds then...lol. and the general rule is tell the fitters last...<br><br>any input is better than none...<br><br>Rob <p></p><i></i>

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