I found it[I think]

sbutler · Post by **sbutler** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:09 pm

After all the dramas with the fuel, I think Ive found the problem!!!
I was a bit down after the Barry weekend because we really didnt know what we fixed [if anything] Anyway I got a mirror & shined the sun down into the tank. Oh my god you should see it. Its got something growing in their. Its like a fungus[spelling] Its grey & spotted & its all over the inside of the tank.
There is spots of rust [not bad] but when the tank is dry, you can wipe your finger around in there & it comes out with like rust powder..

I spoke to John at Mototech & he said its common with bike that dont get used a lot. The tank is empty on my bike all the time. I drain it after each meeting. I spoke to Dudley & he said I bet you put 98 Shell Opimax?
I said yeah he said get it out it causes a fungal growth!!
So theres two things going on in there. Im getting the tank cleaner & restorer kit from this mob> www.por15.com.au that should fix that.

I then have to pull the carbs & go through them & clean everything. That will be a Sunday arvo job, were I can take me time & do it in the peice & quiet.

Then get a new/SH pump probably a carbed R1 pump & re fit all the wires & hoses, a new filter & thing should be apples!

Im also getting the rear shock out & fitting a tougher spring. After talking to my suspension guy, he said the wollow was caused by the spring being a little light. While the shock is apart, we'll be going up to 7.5w oil to gain a bit more damping adjustment.

Then I have to get a new rear slick, as theres nothing left of this one.

So I have a bit of work in front of me, but in the end we should be looking at a greatly improved bike, both in the way it handles & in its reliability.

Now I just need some MONEY to pay for all this stuff!!

hotcam · Post by **hotcam** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:47 pm

Fungus... gross.

Glad you figured out why it was choking up though.

Good luck on the money side, I wish I had an easy solution for that
problem to tell you, but so far all I got is "eat instant noodles for a month
and save all the rest of the $" which is not very helpful.

stan · Post by **stan** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:27 pm

ah yes, how does one make a small fortune out of motor racing........start with a relly big fortune!!

Hope these fixes help you in the right direction steve, i've come home from race meetings many times scratching my head and asking 'what was all that about, how could so many things go wrong in 2 days after two weeks prep'.

That said, you work on your faults and your bike evolves all the time, and the relability improves. In my last year of racing i hardly had to touch the bike at all, just roll it off the ute and went racing

stan

sbutler · Post by **sbutler** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:14 pm

Yeah guys this is a whole new expereance for me. Working out all these issues has been taxing on both my mental health & my bank ballance.
I cant beleive how this thing eats rear slicks!

When I was racing 20 years ago, it was set the bike up, & forget it untill the next meeting. But thay were all new bikes, not 16 year old bikes.
In fact I cant ever rememeber not finishing a race ever???

The FZRs are known for their toughness, so reliability isnt an issue, besides I dont rev it over 11000rpm because it falls off the torque curve.
Just pluck another gear & hang on!

I can now see a light at the end of the tunnel.
I know what I need to do to fix the fuel problem. [thank god]
I know what I need to make a better race bike. [suspension wise]
All the changes I made over the off season worked a treat. I really couldnt beleive how sharp the bike felt, it just did everything I asked. [execpt keep going]ha ha ha
So just some fine tuning of the chassis now & she'll be sweet.

My goal is to get it & me as good as I can before I get too much older. I am really enjoying the racing side of things, although the red mist is starting to get thicker.
The better the bike & I go, the more serious the game gets.
But hay Ive been there before. If it stops being fun, I'll just sell it all up & slip back into retirment.
But this time I'll retire because I want, not because I have too..
As my wife said, "You have unfinished bissiness" & maybe she's right.

But anyway I'll be making a start next week. I'll be going through the carbs first. Get a pump sorted, last I'll be doing the tank & rear shock. The Rudd money might just help.[If it ever comes] She's already said " if there is any left I can have it for racing" Thats why I love her??

spook · Post by **spook** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 5:52 am

Optimax... rrrr.

Regarding the tank, no need to do the $70-80 por thing. Nothing wrong with what they offer, however, the main thing that their system does, as long as the tank doesn't leak, (and that is not a problem?) is clean the shit (rust et-al) out of it, and the ingredient used is phosphoric acid.

You will find it on the hardware store shelf in the concreting section in the guise of product called Rust-Off. It is basically a solution of phosphoric acid @625 g/l.... That's pretty strong, but it works well. Basically the same as por. Blank everything off well ie: (plates and rubber gaskets) and slosh it around every couple of minutes for about 1/2 an hour. Your tank will be healed. Wash it out well with water, then warm your tank so the water evaporates out of it. Ie: stick it in front of the heater overnight with the filler open. Don't get it (the acid) on the paint as it will f**k it. Costs about $8.00.

The sealant in the por kit is a moisture cured epoxy, not really needed in your case, but works well if you have holes, but otherwise is just something else to end up in your carbs. You can always just swill around some of that ointment you use between your arse cheeks

spook · Post by **spook** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:04 am

Also, your better off leaving fuel in the tank, and chucking in some metho or methanol, the fuel creates a hazardous environment for things such as fungus, and the metho will absorbe any moisture. When your ready to go racing drain the contents into your wash bucket and refill with fresh fuel...
Cheers...
PS: I'm just making it up as I go along.

sbutler · Post by **sbutler** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:30 am

spook wrote:Optimax... rrrr.

Regarding the tank, no need to do the $70-80 por thing. Nothing wrong with what they offer, however, the main thing that their system does, as long as the tank doesn't leak, (and that is not a problem?) is clean the shit (rust et-al) out of it, and the ingredient used is phosphoric acid.

You will find it on the hardware store shelf in the concreting section in the guise of product called Rust-Off. It is basically a solution of phosphoric acid @625 g/l.... That's pretty strong, but it works well. Basically the same as por. Blank everything off well ie: (plates and rubber gaskets) and slosh it around every couple of minutes for about 1/2 an hour. Your tank will be healed. Wash it out well with water, then warm your tank so the water evaporates out of it. Ie: stick it in front of the heater overnight with the filler open. Don't get it (the acid) on the paint as it will f**k it. Costs about $8.00.

The sealant in the por kit is a moisture cured epoxy, not really needed in your case, but works well if you have holes, but otherwise is just something else to end up in your carbs. You can always just swill around some of that ointment you use between your arse cheeks

I'll give that a go. I have also been told "deoxadine" is very good for this sort of problem. Have you heard of this???

spook · Post by **spook** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:58 am

sbutler wrote:I have also been told "deoxadine" is very good for this sort of problem. Have you heard of this???

Yes, it a a system the same as POR, consists of a cleaner (detergent) and a phosphoric acid solution, but no sealer. The Phosphoric acid will do it, if you get the stuff I mentioned dilute it 50% with water if you like and it will be about the same concentration as what you get in the por kit etc. (I don't bother) If diluting always add acid to the water, never the other way around.

What I'm saying is the RUST-off is the SAME thing you get in the deoxadine and POR kits. Only you are buying a litre of the stuff (enough to do 5 tanks) Using phosphoric acid will give you a very satisfactory result... It will look like new, and cost less than $10.00 Cheers.

sbutler · Post by **sbutler** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:30 am

spook wrote:
sbutler wrote:I have also been told "deoxadine" is very good for this sort of problem. Have you heard of this???
Yes, it a a system the same as POR, consists of a cleaner (detergent) and a phosphoric acid solution, but no sealer. The Phosphoric acid will do it, if you get the stuff I mentioned dilute it 50% with water if you like and it will be about the same concentration as what you get in the por kit etc. (I don't bother) If diluting always add acid to the water, never the other way around.

What I'm saying is the RUST-off is the SAME thing you get in the deoxadine and POR kits. Only you are buying a litre of the stuff (enough to do 5 tanks) Using phosphoric acid will give you a very satisfactory result... It will look like new, and cost less than $10.00 Cheers.

I like what your saying Spook.
But what stops the rust from forming when Im not using the bike??
I like to drain the tank after each meeting, simply because I dont know when I'll be racing again..

spook · Post by **spook** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:53 am

Moisture is a product of condensation, it's heavier than petrol so it settles to the bottom of the tank. This is good and bad.... Good in that when it is there it is out of the air (no fungus), bad because it doesn't mix with petrol and forms little droplets that sit on the bottom of the tank and start rusting out the bottom of the tank, or can end up in carbs.

The good thing about adding methanol is that it mixes with both petrol and water, so the water is then suspended in solution. So it's not touching or forming anywhere. Also if you add say 10 percent to you 98 oct fuel, you will pick up about 5 octane points! No real need to flush the tank at all! And no more moisture problems... I'm not really making this up

hotcam · Post by **hotcam** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:59 am

I second what spook said - methylated spirits to absorb the moisture, and full tank for no air in it.

Else, when you have the tank cleaned and drained,
after each race weekend, spray some fogging oil in it to prevent rust.

sbutler · Post by **sbutler** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:07 am

spook wrote:Moisture is a product of condensation, it's heavier than petrol so it settles to the bottom of the tank. This is good and bad.... Good in that when it is there it is out of the air (no fungus), bad because it doesn't mix with petrol and forms little droplets that sit on the bottom of the tank and start rusting out the bottom of the tank, or can end up in carbs.

The good thing about adding methanol is that it mixes with both petrol and water, so the water is then suspended in solution. So it's not touching or forming anywhere. Also if you add say 10 percent to you 98 oct fuel, you will pick up about 5 octane points! No real need to flush the tank at all! And no more moisture problems... I'm not really making this up

Im not for one minute think your making this up. Im taking it all in. I want this fuel problem gone forever.
So I can drain the tank after each meeting, as long as I spray some WD or the like in there when its empty??
Would that stop this issue problem??

hotcam · Post by **hotcam** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:22 am

It'll stop rust, I dunno about fungus.

spook · Post by **spook** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:39 am

Leave fuel with 10% methanol in the tank... It will function as a water trap. Run it... Race it (rules permitting) Not only will you remove water from tank, you will also get rid of it from carbs, lines, pump, filters, etc.

Methanol will improve your power with the increased octane points, allow you to run more advanced ignition timing and cool the engine (valves etc).

Draining the tank is effectively creating an environment for mould to flourish in. And rust to occur everywhere

sbutler · Post by **sbutler** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:22 am

spook wrote:Leave fuel with 10% methanol in the tank... It will function as a water trap. Run it... Race it (rules permitting) Not only will you remove water from tank, you will also get rid of it from carbs, lines, pump, filters, etc.

Methanol will improve your power with the increased octane points, allow you to run more advanced ignition timing and cool the engine (valves etc).

Draining the tank is effectively creating an environment for mould to flourish in. And rust to occur everywhere

Sweet, I cant play with timing or jetting without putting it on the dyno again. So I'll leave that alone.
So a 1/2 a cup of methanol + 10lts of 98 unleaded = no more mushrooms. or rust. Would that be about right?

spook · Post by **spook** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:35 am

I've told you what I reckon

5% would work. 1/2 a cup.....

ozzyfzr · Post by **ozzyfzr** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:41 am

For those of you wishing to create a high octane mix
Formula for Octane increase below:-
(Litres of Fuel*Octane rating)+(Litres of Additive*Octane rating for additive)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2
Formula (R+M)/2 Cost Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium Note

Toluene 114Octane 10%=94.2 Octane 20%=96.4 Octane 30%98.6 Octane
Xylene 117Octane 10%=94.5 Octane 20%=97.0 Octane 30%=99.5 Octane
Methyl-tertiary-butyl-ether (MTBE) 118Octane 10%=94.6 Octane 20%=97.2 Octane 30%=99.8 Octane
Methanol or Ethanol 101Octane 10%=94.3/94.7 Octane 20%=Not Recommended 30%=Not Recommended

Toluene: Common ingredient in Octane Boosters in a can. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, i.e. from 92 to 92.3. Often costs $3-5 for 12-16 ounces, when it can be purchased for less than $3/gal at chemical supply houses or paint stores.

Xylene: Similar to Toluene. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, i.e. from 92 to 92.3. Usually mixed with Toluene and advertised as *race formula*.

Methyl-tertiary-butyl-ether (MTBE): Oxygenate. Very common in octane booster products. Has lower BTU content than toluene or xylene, but oxygenate effect makes the gasoline burn better and produce more energy.

Methanol or Ethanol: Methanol is wood alcohol. Ethanol is grain alcohol and found in Gasohol in 10% ratios. Both alcohols are mildly corrosive and will eat gas tank linings, rubber and aluminum if used in excessive ratios. Main ingredient in "Gas Dryers", combine with water.

Isopropyl Alcohol and Tertiary Butyl Alcohol: Similar to Methanol/Ethanol. Isopropyl Alcohol is simply rubbing alcohol.
Notes:

Toluene: Common ingredient in Octane Boosters in a can. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, i.e. from 92 to 92.3. Often costs $3-5 for 12-16 ounces, when it can be purchased for less than $3/gal at chemical supply houses or paint stores.

Xylene: Similar to Toluene. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, i.e. from 92 to 92.3. Usually mixed with Toluene and advertised as *race formula*.

Methyl-tertiary-butyl-ether (MTBE): Oxygenate. Very common in octane booster products. Has lower BTU content than toluene or xylene, but oxygenate effect makes the gasoline burn better and produce more energy.

Methanol or Ethanol: Methanol is wood alcohol. Ethanol is grain alcohol and found in Gasohol in 10% ratios. Both alcohols are mildly corrosive and will eat gas tank linings, rubber and aluminum if used in excessive ratios. Main ingredient in "Gas Dryers", combine with water.

Hope it helps
Regards
Ozzyfzr

spook · Post by **spook** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:58 am

Ozzy? Would increasing octane a few percentage point affect tune very much? Wouldn't humidity, temperature, and barometric pressure have more of affect? Steve, only joking

sbutler · Post by **sbutler** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:01 am

spook wrote:I've told you what I reckon 5% would work. 1/2 a cup.....

Help me here spook. You said 10% then 5%. Im not good with numbers. I carry my fuel for the bike in 10lt drums. So going off your figures. I would add 50mls per 10 lts of PULP?? Is that correct?

ozzyfzr · Post by **ozzyfzr** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:11 am

Spook, using a 30% mix of say Toluene(114) with 98 Optimax would give close to 103Octane, this would be a substantial gain in power throttle response and cleaner running.
In an ideal situation doing back to back tests it would not affect tune very much with all parameters within a few percent, by tune I assume you mean fuelling/jetting?

If you run normal low octane Unleaded and then choose to run Optimax, you don't change jets etc, but witness a smoother more response throttle and perhaps better fuel consumption. This would go for the "hot mix" above, you may witness an increase in coolant temperature as the explosion is releasing more Heat etc, jetting would not drift by much if at all, if a dyno was available you may find that a slightly richer mixture would be required to cool the explosion (lean is hot, rich is cool).

I hope this answers your question.
Regards
Ozzyfzr