I found it[I think]

spook · Post by **spook** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:12 am

1/2 a cup may do it... I'm not a chemist so don't really know.

If you were to add 500ml, 1/2 a liter to 10 litres of premium unleaded you would have a 5% mix. You would fix your moisture woes. 1/4 litre 250 ml would probably do it also.

sbutler · Post by **sbutler** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:15 am

spook wrote:1/2 a cup may do it... I'm not a chemist so don't really know.

If you were to add 500ml, 1/2 a liter to 10 litres of premium unleaded you would have a 5% mix. You would fix your moisture woes. 1/4 litre 250 ml would probably do it also.

Great: Thats what I'll do 500ml per 10 liters from now on. I'll just get this tank lines & pump sorted now, & things should be apples!
Thanks

spook · Post by **spook** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:19 am

And thanks Ozzy.... always helps Mate! Sensational head you have on those shoulders

sbutler · Post by **sbutler** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:30 am

This is when the bike was going good.
Some nice fellow Emailed this pic today & I though it was a great shot of the FZR in battle.
BTW: I passed bike 43 about 50mts after this shot! I was lineing him up for a pass.

This is how I want all the pics to look. Not the bike in the pits in a hundred peices..

spook · Post by **spook** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:32 am

Okay.... One more question Ozzy. Just say you used 10% methanol in your fuel mix, and added some moisture (water to the mix) as they do in turbo engines etc. How much if anything would this aid a highly strung race engine? (GREAT PHOTO)!!!!!!

hotcam · Post by **hotcam** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:01 am

Higher Octane fuel does not automatically increase power output.

Water or 50/50 water-methanol (MW50) injection does NOT
automatically increase power output by itself.

What does increase power is:
(1) to set the engine to run extremely high compression ratio
(or boost with a turbo or supercharger) to increase combustion pressure

(2) to use advanced ignition timing (especially at high revs) to allow
a more complete fuel burn while valves are closed

(3) to improve combustion efficiency by spark temperature,
combustion chamber design, mixture, atomization, etc.

(4) a more potent fuel-air mix
eg
- colder more dense incoming air IF combined with a more dense fuel
such as Optimax or a richer mixture ratio in the carb,
- fuels with liquidised oxygen components such as NOS
- fuels with higher Q-Heat value "latent heat of combustion"
(ie give more energy released for the same amount of fuel burned)

However:
- high combustion pressures and
- advanced timing
also increases detonating (pinging/knocking), and heat output, substantially.

SO why high octane? Why MW50 injection?

High-octane fuel fights detonation.
Water injection or water-methanol injection fights detonation and heat.
The water actually absorbs energy substantially from the fuel and
reduces power a bit, but is still useful to reduce heat in high performance
engines.

The short answer is, IF you build a high-po engine you will use
these things to avoid blowing it up.
IF you don't have a high-po engine that demands them, you will
see no benefit.

It's like installing an extremely large radiator and water pump on
a street car that was not overheating anyhow. No benefit until
you hot up the motor too.

Further reading:
The octane rating is a measure of the resistance of gasoline and other fuels to detonation (engine knocking) in spark-ignition internal combustion engines. High-performance engines typically have higher compression ratios and are therefore more prone to detonation, so they require higher octane fuel. A lower-performance engine will not generally perform better with high-octane fuel, since the compression ratio is fixed by the engine design.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

In internal combustion engines, water injection, also known as anti-detonation injection, is a method for cooling the combustion chambers of engines by adding water to the cylinder or incoming fuel-air mixture, allowing for greater compression ratios and largely eliminating the problem of engine knocking (detonation). This effectively increases the octane rating of the fuel, meaning that performance gains can be obtained when used in conjunction with a supercharger or turbocharger, altered spark ignition timing, and other modifications.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)

ozzyfzr · Post by **ozzyfzr** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:52 am

Spook, water is only added to Turbo motors to reduce the effect of pinging/detonation when using very high boost pressures. The water is added to cool the intake charge making it more dense and hence the greater the intake charge (higher octane), when combustion takes place the water vaporises and absorbs some of the excess temperature, thus not allowing it to get into the cylinder walls. You would have to be running very high Compression ratios in a Normally Aspirated engine to get anywhere near a turbocharged/supercharged motor on boost. Another side effect of this is you are working in a very narrow safe band with regards to detonation and any mis-calculation of mixture strength would be catastrophic engine damage.
Hope it helps!
Regards
Ozzyfzr

spook · Post by **spook** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:59 am

hotcam · Post by **hotcam** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:22 pm

aid a highly strung race engine

Depends how highly strung your engine is.

I tried to post a good long response last night but it would only post
blanks, so here's a short one:

Higher octane-rated fuels, and water or methanol/water injection, are
not performance improvers.

IF you improve performance by other means (eg higher compression
pistons/engine, turbocharger/supercharger, etc) you will risk
detonation and heat problems.

High octane-rating fuels and water injection will fight these problems.
They are a fix to secondary problems created as a side effect of the
performance improvements.

If you are talking about a FZR stock engine then all you need is a
decent 95-RON petrol. Water in the fuel will simply soak up some
of the available energy, reducing power a very slight amount.

Methanol/methylated spirits in the fuel will burn but produces
slightly less energy (about 3%less) than standard petrol, so
you'll notice no difference there for a cupful in 10L of petrol.

and copied directly from Wikipedia:

High-octane fuels:
The octane rating is a measure of the resistance of gasoline
and other fuels to detonation (engine knocking) in spark-ignition
internal combustion engines. High-performance engines typically
have higher compression ratios and are therefore more prone to
detonation, so they require higher octane fuel. A lower
performance engine will not generally perform better with
high-octane fuel, since the compression ratio is fixed by the
engine design.

Water injection / water-methanol injection:
In internal combustion engines, water injection, also known as
anti-detonant injection, is a method for cooling the combustion
chambers of engines by adding water to the cylinder or incoming
fuel-air mixture, allowing for greater compression ratios and
largely eliminating the problem of engine knocking (detonation).
This effectively increases the octane rating of the fuel, meaning
that performance gains can be obtained when used in
conjunction with a supercharger or turbocharger, altered
spark ignition timing, and other modifications.

sbutler · Post by **sbutler** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:58 am

Thanks for simplifying things a bit Cam.
I think if I do as been suggested so far. Just were & what is fogging oil??
Are you talking WD40 or the likes? As I really do want to drain the tank between meetings...

ozzyfzr · Post by **ozzyfzr** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:31 am

hotcam wrote:
Higher octane-rated fuels, and water or methanol/water injection, are
not performance improvers.

Sorry Cam but I disagree, back in the late 80"s early 90's, in F1 we were using the so-called "Funny Fuels" these had octane boosters and
Oxidizing agents. When it was banned, we lost 50BHP overnight! that was just locked in the fuel by the petro-chemical wizards.

In a street sense you can extract a little more power from the fuels but this is better coupled with Higher compression ratios, different cam timing and ignition etc etc, to get the full benefit.

As a budget HP increase the fuel has to be the easiest trial, In contrast to a balls out motor that will be running 12.5-13.5:1 and running cams at 101-102degs and looking at higher lift and duration with bigger valves, carillo rods with forged kit pistons, lightened crank etc etc. All of which cost huge $$$$

Interesting thread tho!
Regards
Ozzyfzr

Yoniboi · Post by **Yoniboi** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:13 pm

Octane as such is a misnomer. Octane hasn't been added to fuel for something like 100 years now. The scale isn't used to indicate the resistance to knocking, pinging or pinking, but as an indication of flame speed. Higher octane rating equals lower flame speed. Higher compression increases flame speed which can cause the complete explosion of the combustion mixture before the piston has passed TDC, which is a killer for the piston, conrod and crank (obviously). So if you increase compression you either retard the ignition or increase the octane rating, or both, or kill your engine.

I've increased the compression enormously, (0.5mm of cylinder head and Wiseco pistons) I use 95 octane fuel and don't have any problems. Needs the choke to start though! even in the middle of summer!!

God I'm drunk.
Hope I didn't bore anyone.

Hugs
John

hotcam · Post by **hotcam** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:39 pm

"Funny Fuels" these had octane boosters and
Oxidizing agents. When it was banned, we lost 50BHP overnight! that was just locked in the fuel by the petro-chemical wizards.

Yes those fuels made a difference, but as you say it was not just
the octane rating, but also because of the "extra ingredients".

Respectfully I must say that I believe that much of the extra
power came from the oxidising agents,
allowing much more liquid fuel to be injected and burned.
As an example of an oxidising agent increasing horsepower,
take NOS.
Everyone knows it's an instant horsepower boost. But how?
NOS systems inject oxygen in a liquid form, as part of the nitrous
oxide liquid. Also they inject a lot more fuel.
When it reaches the combustion chamber the nitrous oxide breaks
down releasing heat energy (=horsepower!), and oxygen,
which is then burned with the extra fuel.
So you get to burn heaps more fuel and supply
much more energy. That's where the extra
horsepower comes from. Also as an extra bonus, the injection
of nitrous cools the intake.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous

Take away those oxidising agents, and you must inject less fuel
also so that you do not have unburnt fuel left over.
Now they are burning less fuel than before in the same engine,
of course they are making less horsepower.

I also must point out the fact that the engines were purpose-built
with high compression and advanced timing to run on that
higher octane-rating.
When the fuels were banned and the lower octane-rating fuels
used, then the engineers would have decreased the combustion
pressure ratio, by using thicker base gaskets/different shape pistons/etc.
And/or retarded ignition timing. This decreases power,
but allows them to run the lower-rating fuel without destroying the motor.

One benefit of modern engine technology is knock-sensing.
Knock-sensing engine management systems
can automatically detect knocking and adjust the fuel injection and
ignition timing, to supply the maximum possible power without
detonation. In THIS instance only, a higher octane rating WILL result in
more power with no other interference, because the engine
is able to adjust its own configuration from a lower-performance mode
to a high-performance mode. So far the only motorcycle
engines I have found with this technology are BMW.
SAABs also have developed an engine with the power to
adjust its own compression ratio by tilting the head (!).
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _61892620/

Yoniboi is also right, in that octane-rating and compression
also directly affects flame speed which can cause an effect similar
to detonation/knocking/pinging. Actual detonation in an engine
implies no need for a flame at all, the lower-octane-rated fuel
can explode just through engine heat and compression.

Also yes, "Octane the chemical" is no longer in petrol,
that's why we should say "high-octane-rating-fuel" rather
than just "high-octane-fuel".
But when we are lazy I think people still know what we mean...

The key point to take away from this discussion is that it is
very difficult to get a fair comparison of higher-octane-rated fuels
vs lower-octane-rated-fuels directly. Fuels today are made of
hundreds of ingredients for various purposes, and "premium 98"
may well burn better and produce more energy than "standard ULP 91"
but it is not because of the octane rating, it will be because of all
the other stuff they put in such as oxidising agents, mixture
vaporisation aids, detergents, carbon inhibitors, and so on.
Can YOUR engine benefit from these components? Depends
on its construction, condition, fuel system, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrol

sbutler · Post by **sbutler** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:21 am

Jebus! What does this have to do with my dirty fuel/tank/pump issue. Although I find this a very interesting topic, & have really leant a lot from the posts.. I really need a positive fix for my problem.

stan · Post by **stan** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:40 am

Step 1: Clean bike/tank

Step 2: Buy Fuel

Step 3: Start bike, don race attire

Step 4: Ride it like you stole it

Step 5: Acept $2 trophy as a token of a good weekend, drive home happy

Step 6: repeat step 1

sbutler · Post by **sbutler** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:25 am

stan wrote:Step 1: Clean bike/tank

Step 2: Buy Fuel

Step 3: Start bike, don race attire

Step 4: Ride it like you stole it

Step 5: Acept $2 trophy as a token of a good weekend, drive home happy

Step 6: repeat step 1

Love it..

ozzyfzr · Post by **ozzyfzr** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:34 am

Sorry Steve, went off on a bit of a "Tangent" apologies, Thanks Stan for stepping in!!!!
Given the lively debate around this other stuff, I would like to meet some of you over a few coldies and talk about it !!!!
Ah well we can always dream, perhaps when I get sent to Melbourne for work or even get to ride there, we could all meet up!!
Regards
Ozzyfzr

sbutler · Post by **sbutler** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:42 am

ozzyfzr wrote:Sorry Steve, went off on a bit of a "Tangent" apologies, Thanks Stan for stepping in!!!!
Given the lively debate around this other stuff, I would like to meet some of you over a few coldies and talk about it !!!!
Ah well we can always dream, perhaps when I get sent to Melbourne for work or even get to ride there, we could all meet up!!
Regards
Ozzyfzr

No worries at all Ozz You, Stan, Spook & Cam have helped me more than you all realise, in one way or another.
I would love for you all to come to a race meeting one day, Im sure you'd all love it!! It would be great to have some of TEAM EXUP around the pits.
You could even wear a G string & tight T shirt & be my grid studs!! :ha :ha :ha :ha

hotcam · Post by **hotcam** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:35 am

I like tangents, they're fun.

anyhow back to the racing, yes I hope I can make your next
race weekend. Let us know when it's on, although I promise not
to be in a g-string...

ozzyfzr · Post by **ozzyfzr** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:53 am

When and where is your next meeting, a ride to Sydney is not out of the question! just might end up on my XJ900 and not the FZR tho!!
Regards
Ozzyfzr